|
|
|
Kellyanne
Flier
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 659
Location: Ottawa, Canada |
Andrew - don't forget things like by-laws and insurance. You should check with your city council to see what the regulations are for keeping large quantities of birds. If you are having people visit your bird sanctuary - you will defintely need insurance.
Sounds like a great plan! Wish I could come to Australia to visit. |
Thursday October 19, 2006 4:18 pm |
|
|
shirin
Moderator
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 7401
Location: Canada, Toronto |
What are your plans with regards to any wild birds that might come near your outdoor aviary? Are you planning on making them shower with Chlorhexidine too?    |
|
Sunday October 22, 2006 4:26 pm |
|
|
chispleeze
Flier
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 475
Location: Upstate NY |
LOL Shirin. I don't think it will be a problem. He's got to have birds first and so far every time it's been asked he's avoided the question about when he's ever going to get one. |
|
Sunday October 22, 2006 4:39 pm |
|
|
|
|
fruitynutbird
Fledgeling
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Sydney, Australia |
|
 |
|
Shirin, the risk of outdoor pet birds catching infectious diseases from wild ones is a very serious issue which I have been pondering for a while now.
Just using PBFD as an example: PBFD is endemic in many wild bird populations in Australia, including cockatoos and budgerigars. There are flocks of budgerigars over here which are 100% infected with PBFD.
The risk of an outdoor aviary bird catching infectious diseases from their wild relatives cannot and should not be minimized. Some of these diseases are treatable, eg, intestinal worms, mites, lice and psittacosis. Others have no known cure, eg, PBFD.
I've already asked a number of well-respected avian veterinarians about this problem but to date they haven't given me any good answers.
In some parts of the US, people need to be
extremely
cautious about taking their pet birds outdoors, because of the presence of West Nile virus, which is transmitted by mosquitoes. Thankfully, this disease doesn't seem to have arrived in Australia yet.
As for requiring visitors to shower with chlorhexidine, the most important factor here is not actually the chlorhexidine. It is the actual physical washing and scrubbing and changing into clean clothes and slippers which removes the vast bulk of the risk of disease transmission.
Because I actually want some people (after selective and rigorous screening) to be able to have a glimpse of my (future) life with parrots, I am actually going to let some of them in. I do not think the chlorhexidine, showering and clothes-changing is in any way being overcautious.
The accepted standard of avicultural practice is actually much stricter than what I am proposing for my parrot centre. The concept of the closed aviary actually would not allow any visitors at all to come into contact with the birds. The closed aviary concept was formulated during the 1980's and was formally established in 1990 as a key component of the Model Avicultural Program (MAP). MAP is primarily used by high standard breeders, but parrot sanctuary organizations such as the Gabriel Foundation also meet MAP criteria. My proposals for allowing visitors after they're showered and scrubbed with chlorhexidine and changing their clothes and shoes...is actually very lax compared to the requirements of MAP.
Andrew |
|
Tuesday October 24, 2006 12:37 pm |
|
|
fionam
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 1757
Location: Surrey, UK |
So Andrew,
When are you going to get started with that 1st lucky birdy....
You can start helping NOW!!!
Fi |
|
Tuesday October 24, 2006 7:16 pm |
|
|
Jrmno1
Flying tumbler
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 2310
Location: Ohio, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by fionam
So Andrew,
When are you going to get started with that 1st lucky birdy....
You can start helping NOW!!!
Fi
Yes Andrew,
As My Grandma said "Get off the Pot or Pee" 
I have a lot of repects for you and the knowlege you bring to this forum, But I want to see you get your hands dirty.
John |
|
Tuesday October 24, 2006 7:24 pm |
|
|
|
|
shirin
Moderator
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 7401
Location: Canada, Toronto |
|
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by fruitynutbird
Shirin, the risk of outdoor pet birds catching infectious diseases from wild ones is a very serious issue which I have been pondering for a while now.
Just using PBFD as an example: PBFD is endemic in many wild bird populations in Australia, including cockatoos and budgerigars. There are flocks of budgerigars over here which are 100% infected with PBFD.
The risk of an outdoor aviary bird catching infectious diseases from their wild relatives cannot and should not be minimized. Some of these diseases are treatable, eg, intestinal worms, mites, lice and psittacosis. Others have no known cure, eg, PBFD.
I've already asked a number of well-respected avian veterinarians about this problem but to date they haven't given me any good answers.
In some parts of the US, people need to be
extremely
cautious about taking their pet birds outdoors, because of the presence of West Nile virus, which is transmitted by mosquitoes. Thankfully, this disease doesn't seem to have arrived in Australia yet.
As for requiring visitors to shower with chlorhexidine, the most important factor here is not actually the chlorhexidine. It is the actual physical washing and scrubbing and changing into clean clothes and slippers which removes the vast bulk of the risk of disease transmission.
Because I actually want some people (after selective and rigorous screening) to be able to have a glimpse of my (future) life with parrots, I am actually going to let some of them in. I do not think the chlorhexidine, showering and clothes-changing is in any way being overcautious.
The accepted standard of avicultural practice is actually much stricter than what I am proposing for my parrot centre. The concept of the closed aviary actually would not allow any visitors at all to come into contact with the birds. The closed aviary concept was formulated during the 1980's and was formally established in 1990 as a key component of the Model Avicultural Program (MAP). MAP is primarily used by high standard breeders, but parrot sanctuary organizations such as the Gabriel Foundation also meet MAP criteria. My proposals for allowing visitors after they're showered and scrubbed with chlorhexidine and changing their clothes and shoes...is actually very lax compared to the requirements of MAP.
Andrew
I wasn't in any way trivializing the risk of dieases in wild birds, seems like you totally missed my point. My point is that if you're going to be so paranoid about people coming in contact with your birds, then you shouldn't have an outdoor aviary because the risk of your birds catching something from wild birds is far greater than them catching something from people.
Secondly, I understand you have done a lot of reading, but that in no way makes you an expert in parrots, parrot behaviour, or veterinary medicine. You've never even experienced living with a parrot. So what would make your "parrot centre" so special? Why would anybody put up with having to go through strict screening, and having to shower and scrub themselves with chlorehexidine, change their clothes, and essentially be treated like they're contaminated with some infectious deadly disease, just to see your birds, when they could see the exact same birds at the zoo, or the petstore, or a parrot convention, or in the wild, without having to go through all that?! Why would anyone want "a glimpse of your future life with parrots"? If you want so badly for people to get a glimpse of your parrots, then take a video and put it on the internet. But this whole making people srcub themselves down thing will never fly.
As far as the closed aviary concept, from what I understand they also believe in culling any bird that's not up to par with the rest of the flock  So just because culling is standard for them, does it make it rigth? Is that what you're planning on doing with your birds too if they're not "perfect"? |
|
Wednesday October 25, 2006 12:55 pm |
|
|
budgies plus
Egg
Joined: 26 Oct 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Perth Western Asutralia |
|
|
|
Unless you have acchieved totally training your parrots, the stresses involved in moving them from indoors to outdoors several timesa a day may cause them to develop behavioural problems and definitely stress the birds as well, regardless of your intention that they get playtime and naptime etc. What if the birds love the aviary so much they don't want to be caught and brought inside for "naptime" ? I can picture you chasing the birds around a very large aviary just because you say it's "naptime". I have aviaries of the size you are talking about and believe me it is very hard to catch a bird in that size aviary without causing the bird some stress. And the larger the parrot, the more stresses. All your planning on paper sounds a bit regimented to me and possibly impractical in real terms. You are also probably aware of the chemical hazards a normal home presents for birds that live most of their life inside......formaldehyde in carpets, linoleum and floorboards, dangerous vapours from many of our normal furnishings, and cooking utensils. So, an indoors birds isn't really a more fortunate bird in a real sense. An indoors bird is a bird forced to live it's life against it's natural instincts. The outdoors aviary concept you have of the size you talk about is great. But apart from things worked out in your head or on paper...they don't always work in reality. Nothing wrong with a good idea, but sometimes planning and planning and planning some more just leads to delaying your actions....why not start now with the parrots of your choice and their initial training ? Put your "dreams" into reality or at least the beginning of your future plan. One last thing.....I also don't think anyone would be bothered coming to see your birds if they had to do the wash, disinfect, and change clothes thing either.....even if you had a bird like Einstein would they do that just to see the bird ! You will be up for costs of all that showering, chemical wash, clothing, laundry.....you will have to provide toilet and shower block and parking facilities ....if your council deems your location permissable, if you get building license approvals, if you get all your permits in place and if anyone thinks you are worth visiting at the end of all that. Even if you are in the tourist belt and buses pull up for a tour, they won't have the time frame for the showering ordinance. Big plans Fruitynutbird, maybe start small and work your way up, if you don't get too old waiting for it all to happen. |
|
Saturday October 28, 2006 12:32 am |
|
|
fruitynutbird
Fledgeling
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Sydney, Australia |
|
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by shirin
Why would anybody put up with having to go through strict screening, and having to shower and scrub themselves with chlorehexidine, change their clothes, and essentially be treated like they're contaminated with some infectious deadly disease, just to see your birds, when they could see the exact same birds at the zoo, or the petstore, or a parrot convention, or in the wild, without having to go through all that?! Why would anyone want "a glimpse of your future life with parrots"? If you want so badly for people to get a glimpse of your parrots, then take a video and put it on the internet. But this whole making people srcub themselves down thing will never fly.
My aim is to showcase the richness of the human-bird relationship to members of the public. Some people who don't have birds of their own may find it very interesting to witness this for themselves. People like me! I've been privileged to witness the richness of some human-bird relationships, but that's only because I've made a lot of effort to stick my nose into the parrot-keeping world and made some generous people who have let me into their lives. However, every time I have done this, I have been worried for these generous people's pet birds. Needless to say, I make every effort to keep myself clean and uncontaminated from contact with other birds before I visit, but a number of times, eg, on aviary tours, this has been impossible - and I would have felt so much more relieved if there had been scrubbing facilities and sanitized clothing and footwear for me to change into, each time when I enter a new birdkeeper's property after having already visited another one's.
I'd like more people to have the opportunity to witness a good human-bird relationship as well. If I had just visited zoos and pet stores, I may not have been able to witness the friendship and trust that can develop between a human and a pet parrot. There is an occassional high quality pet store where there are good bird handlers and if you are lucky, you may catch a glimpse of a positive interaction. However, I have found staff in pet stores to be busy and therefore, such glimpses are rare. Something of positive interactions between humans and parrots (in a very abbreviated and highly structured form) may be seen at a performing bird show where there is a good, trusting relationship between the parrot and the trainer, but such shows do not really let people experience how the human(s) and the parrot(s) live together. As for parrot conventions, over here, people who don't keep parrots generally do not attend them.
It doesn't matter to me if the vast majority of the general population do not want to be bothered scrubbing themselves in order to enter my (future) parrot centre. I do not want to have visitors every day or even every week, anyway. However, I do want adequate facilities in place so that it is possible when someone does, because I would have, myself, if I could have done so.
Andrew |
|
Saturday October 28, 2006 3:14 pm |
|
|
|
|
Cathy
Kamikaze pilot
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 6673
Location: Omaha, NE USA |
I really think it's a very idealistic & wonderful goal to look toward Andrew!
I'm sure there will be obstacles, & kinks along the way to work out, as in any endeaver, but it's something to work & plan for
I do wish you all the best of luck with it! I sure wish I lived closer so I could offer some hands on help with it! |
|
Saturday October 28, 2006 3:32 pm |
|
|
chispleeze
Flier
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 475
Location: Upstate NY |
|
|
|
[quote="fruitynutbird]My aim is to showcase the richness of the human-bird relationship to members of the public. Some people who don't have birds of their own may find it very interesting to witness this for themselves. [/quote]
Fruitynutbird I don't believe you can't adequately showcase such a thing when you've never owned a bird yourself. You come here sharing all kinds of knowledge and giving out advice but the truth is you have no hands on exerience. And apparently have no intention of ever actually getting a bird since you TOTALLY AVOID the question every time it's asked. It's getting to be like the people who always tried to tell me how to raise my kids when they never had any of their own. We can all read books and do research. But actually owning a bird, living with it, interacting with it every day etc. is what really teaches you about the human-bird relationship. If you are really so enthralled with the human-bird relathinship then I really don't understand why you don't have one. |
|
Saturday October 28, 2006 3:36 pm |
|
|
fruitynutbird
Fledgeling
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Sydney, Australia |
|
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by shirin
As far as the closed aviary concept, from what I understand they also believe in culling any bird that's not up to par with the rest of the flock So just because culling is standard for them, does it make it rigth? Is that what you're planning on doing with your birds too if they're not "perfect"?
The closed aviary concept is about the movement of people and birds into, within and out of an aviary. It isn't about believing in culling. Culling has more to do with breeding birds. However, since culling means birds will be moving out of the aviary, the closed aviary concept has guidelines about this.
Some breeding facilities cull their birds so that they can keep improving the genetic material of their breeder birds. I hasten to add that culling does not mean the birds are having euthanasia! It might mean they will be sold or they may be retired from the breeding program.
As for me, I don't plan on becoming a bird breeder, so I'd have no reason to be culling birds.
Andrew |
|
Saturday October 28, 2006 3:43 pm |
|
|
|
|
fruitynutbird
Fledgeling
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Sydney, Australia |
chispleeze, I'd prefer to build a home for my parrot first, before I bring him/her into my home. I described my plans for such a parrot home in some of my earlier posts in this thread.
Andrew |
|
Saturday October 28, 2006 3:56 pm |
|
|
cheekie_birdy
Experienced flier
Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 1719
Location: Canada |
Andrew...
I think it would be better to get one bird first THEN start the shelter. What if you buy one and it turns out to be such a handful you don't want anymore? Then you already have this big parrot centre started, and you think one bird is a big enough job? Parrots are just like children. Even the little ones!
I think it would be best to get one small-medium parrot first, then plan from that experience. |
|
Saturday October 28, 2006 5:51 pm |
|
|
luke1
Fledgeling
Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 313
Location: UK |
Hi, fruitynutbird, i think that your parrot centre plans are great but im not sure i would want to shower and 'scrub' and change clothes to get in.
maybe you could feed your birds only in their indoor time so that catching them to get them in isnt hard, so they learn when they go in they get food?!
Luke. |
|
Wednesday November 8, 2006 9:53 pm |
|
|
|
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Friday September 5, 2008 6:27 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
