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shirin
Moderator
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 7399
Location: Canada, Toronto |
Hey guys, I would love to continue this discussion tonight, but I have a lot of work to do  ahhhh genetics is killing me!!! I will answer all these questions tomorrow night! |
Thursday January 25, 2007 3:29 am |
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Cathy
Kamikaze pilot
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 6671
Location: Omaha, NE USA |
This is a great discussion! Worthwhile & informative! |
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Thursday January 25, 2007 3:46 am |
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Fluffy Sue
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 10060
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I did some thinking last night.. (Yeah sometimes this girl does actually think  )
I was wondering if PETA did have something to say about let's say the coffee plantations in South America and Asia? Or the tea plantations? Or the banana plantations? In order to get those plantations, there have to be cut a lot of natural trees. Thus animals have no places to live anymore.. 
Though eating bananas or drinking coffee or tea doesn't kill animals in the first place (like eating meat) it's still a side effect..
What do they say about this? (Just wondering?) I mean, this is also not very good for the animals that inhabited that piece of the earth?
I was also wondering about cars.. And polution.. There are a lot of animals dying from polution.. Fish.. This killing is not 'direct' but more a side effect but just as bad.. 
Jee, if I think about all this I'd better stop living. |
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Friday January 26, 2007 12:28 am |
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shirin
Moderator
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 7399
Location: Canada, Toronto |
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quote:
Originally posted by flycatcher
It discusses hunting and fishing on the Wildlife page, and Veggie page.
Do you mean you agrre that say, cats shouldn't be let outdoors except when restrained, and birds shouldn't be kept as pets.
I KNOW birds would rather be free, (who wouldn't) but things in life happen, and a bird can live a fine andhappy life if cared for properly (key word there). PETA seems to be attacking all hunters, fishers, bird keepers, dog breeders, etc., or at least that's what it seems like to me when I read it.
Animals used for commercial food can be killed quickly, and humanely too, not just as they say they are!
They liken animals so much to people, in which case, why do they put them to sleep? The amount of animals they put to sleep (who wind up in their shelters, or 'rescues' or whatever) could be likened to mass murders, if we're gonna go at that angle.
OK, so obviously I'm not a spokes person for PETA (not a member either). If they do indeed talk about fishing and hunting in the way you say, then forgive me, I stand corrected. I do remember my professor mentioning in class that PETA tends to use Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation" as their Bible, and so I assumed that their philosophies would be consistent with Singers'. And I hope this responds to Sue's comment also about the vegan thing. Although I have to say, a couple of years ago my nutrition professor (who was not a vegetarian) said the same thing, that we're not really meant to eat meat. I guess in my opinion this is consistent with the fact that most of the major diseases such as hypertension, heart disease, cancer, diabetes, gallstones, and obesity are directly related to meat consumption, where as vegans on average have higher life expectancy, are less prone to these diseases, and have lower body weight. These facts have nothing to do with animal welfare, and are widely published in scientific journals. The number of disorders linked to vegetariansm, for example iron deficiency pale in comparison to the diseases that result from meat consumption.
Now to answer your questions flycatcher, do I think cats should be kept indoors? At this point I haven't done enough research to form an opinion on that topic, but I do know that domestic cat predation does pose a threat to wild birds. Letting cats go outside also places them at risk for diseases. My sister's cat is an outdoor cat, and we just had to pay over $2000 in vet bills last month because she caught a mysterious illness which the vet could not diagnose, and she had to be hospitalised.
Do I think we should not keep birds? Yes I do think that, because the negatives far outweigh the positives. You said yourself that birds in captivity can live a happy life provided that they are given proper care. Therein lies the problem. The majority of parrot owners are not knowledgeable enough or willing to provide the adequate care needed to keep these birds happy. This is why abandonment and neglect are so prevelant. This is why shelters are overcrowded with unwanted birds. This is why feather plucking and other self destructive behaviours in companion parrots are so common. I just read an article, which I will post at the end of my message, and it said that in America only 11% of parrot owners seek veterinary care! That is outrageous! And it shows the level of commitment of the average parrot owner. We see it on this very board almost on a daily basis, people saying their bird is sick but they don't have the money to take it to the vet. I am sure you are a very responsible parrot owner as are most on this board, but animal welfare advocates, and biologists are against parrots as pets because they see the bigger picture. You can choose to say to hell with all the thousands and thousands of birds who suffer in the pet bird trade, as long as a few of them are happy, or you can care about all of them. So you see, realizing that parrots are not suitable pets for the general public takes a lot more thought and consideration, than to simply just look at what's in your home and decide that pet parrots can indeed be happy in captivity. There is an article called
The welfare and suitability of parrots as companion animals: a review
by Monica Engebretson which is very educational I think, and I really encourage everyone here who doesn't understand why parrots don't make good pets to read it. It can be found on this page
http://www.avianwelfare.org/news/index.htm
In response to this comment: "Animals used for commercial food can be killed quickly, and humanely too, not just as they say they are!"
Yes this is true, but realistically in Canada and America the way you say is not the norm. The fact that factory farming exists and that the millions of animals raised on these farms live a life filled with misery and suffering is not something that was made up by PETA, and had been well documented long before PETA even existed.
As far as the euthanization controversy, I have to ask, if you are so horrified that this many animals are being euthanized, shouldn't you be angry also at the breeders who continue to add to the overpopulation of unwanted animals, thus contributing to this problem of animals having to be euthanized? PETA is not the only organization that euthanizes animals, nearly all animal shelters do, because they have no choice! This is not to say I support PETA in doing that (although I have to question the credibility of that site), as I said in my original post, I do not agree with all of PETA's actions, but I do hold the breeders just as, if not more responsible for the cause of all these unnecessary deaths. |
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Friday January 26, 2007 12:56 am |
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shirin
Moderator
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 7399
Location: Canada, Toronto |
quote:
Originally posted by Fluffy Sue
Jee, if I think about all this I'd better stop living.
Sue you don't have to stop living but you can do your part by only buying organic shade grown coffee  Here's a list:
http://i19.photobucket.com/alb.....coffee.jpg |
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Friday January 26, 2007 1:05 am |
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flycatcher
Bappie
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
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I don't find that many animals being euthanized- there is definately an over population because or irresponsible breeders. What I fing fustrating is that PETA is being hypocritical by screaming: Don't Hunt! It's Cruel!!! And then kill 90% of their shelter animals. See what I mean. If there's a good reason/actual purpose to killing something, for example: food (I meat hunt), the animal is in pain, would be stuck in a cage most their life, etc. then thats a good reason, so long as it's done in a humane way. But to not do what they preach is pretty hypocritical.
Wow! Only 11%!! i thought much more bird owners would care for their birds! Maybe someday there will be a law against keeping birds, but until that time comes, than at least responsible owners should be able to get a bird bred in captivity (and doomed to it), just to make their life a little more bright?
Vegetables are definately healthy, but maybe the reason meat doesn't seem so healthy anymore is because of the hormones in domestic meat? Eskimos live/used to live exclusivly on meat, so it can't be that bad for you. I always thought a balance between the two was good.
Fluffy Sue- I haven't found anything against plantations, etc. on the Peta Site... hmmm... maybe they just focus on direct issues. |
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Friday January 26, 2007 1:38 am |
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Fluffy Sue
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 10060
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quote:
Originally posted by flycatcher
Vegetables are definately healthy, but maybe the reason meat doesn't seem so healthy anymore is because of the hormones in domestic meat? Eskimos live/used to live exclusivly on meat, so it can't be that bad for you. I always thought a balance between the two was good.
Fluffy Sue- I haven't found anything against plantations, etc. on the Peta Site... hmmm... maybe they just focus on direct issues.
THat is sooo true. The Innuit people (Eskimo is degrading for them??) are so very healthy! I heard they're one of the most healthy people on this planet.
I think they do focus on the direct issues..
Shirin: I already buy organic grown tea, but not coffee. That's a good idea. But it's no guarantee that the forest hasn't been chopped down to get those plantations, isn't it? |
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Friday January 26, 2007 7:29 pm |
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flycatcher
Bappie
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
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Ooops... Icalled them Exkimos since I was just reading the Snow Walker... it refers to them as Eskimos.
I didn't know there was shade grown coffee... neat. |
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Saturday January 27, 2007 12:13 am |
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jletaz
Experienced flier
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 1282
Location: CA, USA |
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quote:
Originally posted by shirin
As far as the euthanization controversy, I have to ask, if you are so horrified that this many animals are being euthanized, shouldn't you be angry also at the breeders who continue to add to the overpopulation of unwanted animals, thus contributing to this problem of animals having to be euthanized? PETA is not the only organization that euthanizes animals, nearly all animal shelters do, because they have no choice! This is not to say I support PETA in doing that (although I have to question the credibility of that site), as I said in my original post, I do not agree with all of PETA's actions, but I do hold the breeders just as, if not more responsible for the cause of all these unnecessary deaths.
I basically agree with this... I am not against all breeding, but I do agree we have a major pet overpopulation crisis at hand. What I don't believe in... IMHO and not to insult anyone out there  is breeding your pet 'just because' it would be fun, exciting, cool, profitable, etc. to have puppies, or raise chicks (without knowing all there is to know about it)...I think breeding (birds) is best left up to "real" breeders to propogate rare and endangered species, and professional breeders responsibly raising a limited number for the pet trade is okay too. I just hear all the time on other online groups about people who are fairly new to parrots getting a pair of parrots, or pick some up at the local bird fair, or find a mate for their pet and decide to try their hand at breeding just for the heck of it without any knowledge or expertise. Also, it's usually common species that we just don't need any more of. For example, there are already TONS of mature Blue Front Amazons needing to be rehomed. Just like people who can't afford kids having baby after baby just because, without thinking of the consequence... A lot of people just feel they have to breed 'something' if it's not themselves Okay... I'll get off my soapbox now, thanks! 
*I've heard in the past about PETA being against people using animals in ANY way, including companionship. I saw the link to that PETA website, and it didn't admit to that, so I wonder if that is untrue, or maybe some associated groups might be more hardcore? With my limited time, I was unable to find any more information on it.
Julie |
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Tuesday March 27, 2007 2:29 am |
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