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Shi-NaYne
Vliegende acrobaat
Geregistreerd op: 28-12-2007
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Het is duidelijk genoeg dat ze op zo'n vegetarisch dieet kunnen
leven
, maar daarmee is volgens mij ook alles gezegd. Die dieren zijn gewoon niet gemaakt om vegetarisch te eten, dan moet je ze ook met rust laten, vind ik.
Eeeh verschil anders dan larven = bleeeh kip = niet-bleeeh? Geen idee  sorry. De vleessoorten verschillen in hoeveelheid proteine (op 100gr heeft kip bvb. ~ 23gr proteine, terwijl een bepaalde rundvleessoort maar 14gr heeft) en natuurlijk ook de andere voedingsstoffen, koolhydraten en uiteraard vet. Qua verhouding aan de concrete soorten aminozuren zullen ze ongetwijfeld ook verschillen; kan het opzoeken, als je wil, maar weer, of je er zo veel aan hebt... (ik niet echt). |
Zaterdag 13 December 2008 9:24 am |
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Sue
Moderator
Geregistreerd op: 13-1-2005
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Volgens mij is het meer 'overleven' dan leven voor katten op een vegetarisch dieet, maar da's een gevoel. Ik heb nooit een kat gezien die daadwerkelijk een vegetarisch dieet kreeg.
Kip leek mij de larven het beste te benaderen. Rundvlees is heel anders qua structuur. Ik denk dat ik het eens ga proberen op reptielen sites?? |
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Zaterdag 13 December 2008 9:31 am |
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Shi-NaYne
Vliegende acrobaat
Geregistreerd op: 28-12-2007
Berichten: 2442
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Heh, ik weet alleen dat onze kat de blikjes met groente erin met passie haat, en ik elke keer het bakje op hoogste glans uitgelikt vind rondom de keurig achtergelaten erwtjes (kon mijn ogen niet geloven de eerste keer dat het voorkwam).
Ik weet niet, heb me nooit verdiept in de samenstelling van larven... kip is in ieder geval de magerste vleessoort, bevat veel proteine. Het is ook geen rood vlees, zou gezonder zijn. Maar buiten dat weet ik het echt niet; Aswan wilde het niet eten, dus na die paar pogingen heb ik het laten voor wat het is. Ze hebben regelmatige check-ups en daar komen ze gezond uit; in ieder geval de proteine waarden waren helemaal in orde, dus voorlopig maak ik me weinig zorgen  |
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Zaterdag 13 December 2008 9:37 am |
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Shi-NaYne
Vliegende acrobaat
Geregistreerd op: 28-12-2007
Berichten: 2442
Woonplaats: Nijmegen |
Ha, ik heb die artikel als je even je e-mail geeft? |
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Zaterdag 13 December 2008 10:29 am |
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Shi-NaYne
Vliegende acrobaat
Geregistreerd op: 28-12-2007
Berichten: 2442
Woonplaats: Nijmegen |
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Dan maar zo, misschien ook voor anderen interessant
Well, looks like I opened a can of (protein) worms here. I will tell you that I am here (on this board) to share what I see on my side of the exam table with you so that you may have the knowledge available to prevent possible problems in your birds (as I KNOW you are anxious to do). I am here to tell you that I have seen ALL of these problems, and I see them OFTEN. It breaks my heart each time I have to explain to an owner that the problem their bird is experiencing probably could have been prevented. Frankly, I was really hoping this forum would allow me to actually help loving owners of these captive animals to prevent the problems I see, both medical and behavioral, simply by sharing the experiences I and my colleagues have become used to seeing so often BEFORE it is too late for them.
I will first list the problems I see in birds that are fed animal proteins (and fats, for that matter) too much for too long (the words I used in my original caution to Wendy) : 1) high cholesterol levels that lead to hepatic lipidosis, fat embolic strokes, and atherosclerosis, 2) excess fat deposition in the abdominal cavity that compromises air sac capacity, leading to chronic hypoxia which leads to heart failure, neurological disorders, bumblefoot, abdominal hernias, reproductive tract failure (abdominal crowding by fat is one of several factors that is often involved in egg-binding), and, combined with over-clipped wings potentially fatal injuries from falling and landing hard. 3) a greatly increased risk of both articular and visceral gout after all, that protein must be broken down and metabolized and those components that are not used or stored must be excreted in the form of uric acid, the end metabolite of protein metabolism in birds) and if there is an excess, then over time it often builds up slowly but surely, in the bloodstream and then begins to deposit in joints and on the serosal surfaces of organs like the heart and liver. (I can guarantee you DO NOT want to end up with a bird with gout; it is a horrible, slow, painful way to live, then after months of treatment, finally die) 4) measurable (by observation of amount of time awake and active versus asleep and resting) increase in hyperactivity and nervous behavior that exasperates any anxiety-associated behavior disorders such as separation anxiety, phobias, excessive dependency (which often leads to excessive screaming). These problems are not the kind of problems that develop quickly, like consuming a toxin that acts rapidly or being exposed to a virus like Pacheco's that also kills quickly. These are problems that develop slowly, insidiously over time. The bird is often able to compensate for the slowly changing metabolism. They are endowed by nature with a very strong instinct to hide minor flaws in metabolism caused by slowly progressive disease (in order to avoid predation and flock shunning), so by the time symptoms manifest themselves usually when a threshold of tolerability to the developing abnormality is approached and then some stress factor, like the famous draft is all it takes to cause sudden decompensation and rapid decline in health often leading to death. This is really no different than a person who has been developing heart disease for months or years. The body slowly compensates for the gradual decline in physiologic function without having outward symptoms until they also reach a threshold beyond which the body can no longer tolerate. The person has a sudden heart attack, then wonders how he could have missed the signs. Usually, there simply were no signs, or those that were there got blamed on benign possibilities. But that artery didn't become blocked overnight, I assure you.
Yes, Gloria, I am well aware that various species have been observed in the wild to be eating items that contain animal protein, but allow me to remind you of several other facts about birds in the wild: 1) In the wild state, these birds are free to do the job that nature designed them to do namely reproduce. In the process of achieving that goal in the wild, they must expend a great deal of energy in the following ways: they must spend a lot of time flying, back and forth from roosting territories to nesting territories and back again. Short-distance flights are a large part of their day. They go from tree to tree and tree to ground and back again. Flying is involved in a large part of their activities, including acquiring, marking (which involves constant physical presence at different spots peripheral to their territory), and holding territories (which involves a lot of displaying and chasing intruders). They usually must move their territories seasonally (not migration, but territory range-shifting). They must avoid and chase predators. The male must go back and forth from the nest to feeding areas and back many times during the process of raising babies. They burn a LOT of calories in this very BIRD activity. Next, the females must first store, then release a great deal of energy in the actual reproductive process. It takes a lot of protein and cholesterol to build those eggs. It takes a lot of energy to produce them. It then takes a lot of energy to raise and fledge babies.
Please honestly imagine the comparison in energy consumption in the wild state versus the relatively sedentary captive state.
Now, I know all of you are consciously trying to take the responsibility to provide a life as safe, as free from stress, anxiety and disease as is humanly possible for your beloved birds. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be here, typing my fingers to the bone. I am painfully aware of the explosion of information that has become available about how to best accomplish that goal. I am also aware that it is frustratingly obvious that much of the information that is out there is conflicting especially when it comes to the two most complex issues of diet and behavior. You have probably noticed that I advocate doing things as naturally as possible. Indeed, my entire philosophy regarding behavior revolves around learning their natural behavior and figuring out the best way to understand them and designing our management strategies for captivity around that understanding, rather than arrogantly trying to force them to learn our language, then try to reinvent what mother nature has developed for them and convert them into winged humans. When it comes to diet, we would be very negligent not to pay attention to the information and data that has accumulated regarding medical problems that are seen frequently as a result of diets that prove to be incompatible over time with the rest of the management strategies we tend to employ in the act of keeping them captive. These strategies include, but are not limited to imprinting them (which teaches them we are their flock and that a human will ultimately be their mate), allowing them to expend only a fraction of the energy they are designed for, and feeding them diets that are extrapolated from an observed wild diet that nature has provided for them to be able to perform their wild activities. I maintain that in order to ultimately arrive at the most nutritionally safe and healthy diet for them, we must look beyond what we see them eating in the wild, to include an intelligent modification of that wild diet to suit the compromised life we FORCE them to live in captivity. Those modifications are well within their natural adaptability. For example if they sometimes eat animal protein and fat in the wild, is that because this is an absolute requirement? I think not. It is simply a way for them to boost their energy intake as needed to allow for the WILD activities they must participate in. Activities that we CANNOT reproduce in our captive circumstances, unless of course we manage them as some of the large, well funded zoos do, with HUGE, protected biosphere-like captive environments and absolute MINIMAL interference by humans. Face it none of us can do that for our pets. We can't even come close. Now, if you are willing to concede that large amounts of animal protein and fat are likely to cause problems and you feel that you can justify small amounts infrequently because they like it, consider this: most of you who feed small amounts infrequently will probably agree that they do seem to like it very much. So much so that they jump on it and eat it ravenously when given the chance. They like it so much, in fact that they will usually eat way too much if given the chance and run a much higher risk of developing the medical problems I have described above (I repeat I and my colleagues see the problems every day, they are not rare, they are very common). That, in my humble opinion, means they often begin to CRAVE it (like my LSC2 I have told about who craved Pepsi and never forgot even years after discontinuing the practice of allowing her to have some, she would go BALLISTIC any time she saw a Pepsi can). Knowing that they are already subject to a certain amount of stress in their captive life (can you believe for a second that a bird would self mutilate if there were no stress in his being?), how can you knowingly contribute yet another stress by introducing a craving into his life by feeding only a small amount of an item that you ADMIT that you believe is not safe to feed a lot of BY SAYING you only feed it monthly and in small portions. Isn't that a form of teasing? Isn't that a form of CRUELTY?
Regarding some of the facts that are propagated in the so called literature you quote, I would really love to see the pionus (or any other species) that can actually survive, let alone thrive on a STARVATION diet consisting of only 3% protein. I think this has to be a typo. This is absolutely ludicrous. Trust me, (or, if not at least look into the nutritional literature that is backed by solid data and sound conclusions based on meticulously scrutinized scientific study carefully) we do have A LOT of good data to show that this low level of protein is not compatible to the development or maintenance of life for any bird. I empathize with anyone faced with trying to sort out what is good information from what is rubbish. It is not an easy task. Use common sense as a starting point. All grains have at least 9% protein. How could you even feed them a total level of 3%? There are a lot of claims out there that are based on conjecture. Look at the Manna diet; I would be very interested, for example to see it actually analyzed for protein and fat composition on a dry-matter basis. I think you might be surprised at the levels, keep in mind that plants are made of protein, too. The statement that APPARENTLY, eclectus need a higher amount of animal protein that other parrots is, IMO a conclusion based on partial observation which does not account for 1) all the eclectus that are observed eating fruit and green vegetable matter as a large potion of their diet in the wild, 2) the known fact that, physiologically, a fruit eater or a vegetable eater is not designed the same as a carnivore. They are different in many anatomical and physiological ways, from the length of their GI, to the types and amounts of digestive enzymes they produce, to the types and concentrations of uptake receptors in the mucosal lining of their small intestine, to the very nature of the behavior patterns they display as a flock (in the case of vegetarians, or lone existence in the case of most carnivores), or 3) all the eclectus in captivity over many years that are measurably healthy and successful reproductively while eating a diet that contains no animal protein. They may, indeed supplement their wild diet with animal protein and fat occasionally either out of a desperate attempt to catch up nutritionally when availability of their more natural diet is low (availability does vary with season and weather in a given ecosystem, or niche), or to boost energy in times of REAL need, as I described above. Its not a matter of just not always having animal protein available, it's a matter of specific NEED. Need based on unavailability of the normal diet at times, or need for more energy at times.
OK, that being said and off my chest, I'll tell you what I tell my clients: A small amount of chicken or other item of animal protein or fat given infrequently will probably not cause the serious health or behavior problems I listed above, but please do not fool yourself into believing it is necessary to their nutritional health based on extrapolated observations of what they are seen to eat in the wild. They are not in the wild. They are in captivity, being prevented from being what nature intended them to be wild. If you didn't agree with that, deep in your heart, I doubt you would be on this board.
I'm on your side, really
Dr. Mike
Ik heb zelfs de bron gevonden; het was toendertijd een discussie op het forum van Mytoos:
http://www.mytoos.com/forum/ub.....mp;page=1.
(Ik weet niet of we hier niet heel erg offtopic gaan; misschien afsplitsen in een nieuwe topic?) |
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Zondag 14 December 2008 11:09 am |
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Sue
Moderator
Geregistreerd op: 13-1-2005
Berichten: 48764
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Sorry, late reactie! Ik zag dat je het hier al neer hebt gezet. Dank daarvoor! 
Leuk, zo'n kat die de erwtjes laat liggen. Misschien volgende keer de blender loslaten op de erwtjes en het voer?  |
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Maandag 15 December 2008 9:35 am |
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Shi-NaYne
Vliegende acrobaat
Geregistreerd op: 28-12-2007
Berichten: 2442
Woonplaats: Nijmegen |
Ik ben niet harteloos als kat mag hij van mij de groente laten liggen, als hij de rest wel opeet  |
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Maandag 15 December 2008 10:15 am |
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Ga naar Pagina Vorige 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Tijden zijn in GMT + 1 uur. Het is nu Maandag 28 Mei 2012 2:49 pm
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